Forum Replies Created
November 21, 2020 at 5:49 pm in reply to: Let’s all talk about the SERIES FINALE Carry On (S15 E20) #3552
“I know it appeared that he and his family lived in a totally different house (obviously not the bunker), but Sam’s son was also obviously a hunter with the anti-possession tattoo OR at least Sam had to tell him enough about hunting to understand why he had to get that tattoo. I took that as his son being SOME kind of hunter or at least knowledgeable. In my mind, the bunker became a resource. In my mind, it wasn’t that Sam never went back, it’s that he could not live there without Dean.”
I watched that montage a few more times, and I didn’t see any evidence that little Dean was a hunter. Yes, he had an anti-possession tattoo, but that just says to me that Sam wanted to protect him. Mrs. Tran and Chuck Shurley’s book publisher both have tattoos, and they weren’t hunters.
If little Dean was a hunter, it would’ve been really easy to show us that. I looked closely at the books that were on the table when Sam was helping little Dean with his homework. One of the books had an American flag on the cover, so I’m guessing it was a history book. They could’ve easily made that an old-looking lore book, or John’s journal, or (gulp) the Book of the Damned — anything to show that it was about the supernatural. But they didn’t. The Impala stayed in the garage under a dusty tarp. Her trunk was FULL of weapons and warded against demons. It would’ve made sense to show Sam with his son in the car or at least looking into the trunk to make sure the kid knew what was in there. They didn’t show us any of that.
I don’t think little Dean was a hunter. I agree that Sam left the bunker because living there was too painful. But I don’t see any evidence that he did anything related to hunting (after that last case for Donna’s colleague, of course). I think he walked away and kept his son out of the life, too.
Considering hunting killed Dean, I can understand Sam wanting to keep his son out of the life. I completely forgive Sam if that was his choice. However, walking away from all his knowledge, abandoning the wealth of artifacts and lore in the bunker, not passing John’s journal onto another hunter — all of that seems like an unforgivable waste to me.
November 21, 2020 at 5:43 pm in reply to: Let’s all talk about the SERIES FINALE Carry On (S15 E20) #3551
- This reply was modified 1 week, 3 days ago by kate38.
“The thought crossed my mind…though Sam and Dean are human, were they trying to say that they only STAYED alive through all those earlier extraordinary circumstances because God made sure they did? Without God (even an evil God), they are now extra-human and can die in a regular fight in spite of their skills? I have to admit I DID want Dean to be more superhero, but that’s not what Supernatural has tried to convey over the years.”
Hey, JBB 🙂
This is exactly what I think! They wanted Chuck out of their lives, but this was a case of “be careful what you wish for.” They don’t have “bad” luck, like before the pool hall episode. But they also don’t have plot armor or heroes luck. They are cosmically naked. So yes — without those literary protections, you get a mundane, blue collar death like getting impaled on a giant nail.
kateNovember 21, 2020 at 5:38 pm in reply to: Let’s all talk about the SERIES FINALE Carry On (S15 E20) #3550
“I have to say the “LONG ROAD HOME” episode was not very impressive!! It was nice, but it felt like a bonus extra on the season bluray. There wasn’t really anything new to be gained from it.
I fully expected some behind the scenes of the last season footage or maybe some “what are they doing now” thing.
But again, it was nice.
I agree, PNP!!!!
The retrospective felt “nice”, but I didn’t learn anything and there was nothing unexpected. And you’re right that it felt like something that will be on the DVD. It probably will.
I would’ve LOVED more behind-the-scenes footage like they crunched in at the end. THAT would’ve been fun! Boy, could I use the season gag reel today 🙁
kateNovember 21, 2020 at 5:34 pm in reply to: Let’s all talk about the SERIES FINALE Carry On (S15 E20) #3549
“For God’s sake, everyone, if you have a piece of sharp rebar sticking out of a post at chest or waist level, go take that shit down today!”
LOL!!! You crack me up, JBB! I think we all needed that guffaw today 🙂 Thanks!!
kateNovember 21, 2020 at 5:32 pm in reply to: Let’s all talk about the SERIES FINALE Carry On (S15 E20) #3547
“If SAM had died, Dean would been undone or suicidal, I think. He would have become, I think, harder or more self-destructive.”
I’m curious to hear what everyone else thinks, but I think that if Sam had died, Dean would’ve kept hunting. Dean has always been more committed to the “family business” than Sam has. Dean’s never willingly walked away from that commitment to save people. I think Dean would’ve considered it an obligation to John, Sam, and everyone else who has supported them along the way to keep hunting.
In contrast, Sam has spent most of his life running from that responsibility. He seemed to turn around by season 10, when he told Charlie that hunting is his life and he loves it, but he doesn’t want to do it without his brother.
Interestingly, while Dean was dying this time, he had plenty of time to tell Sam to find a nice girl and settle down, but he didn’t. He told Sam to “always keep fighting”. That could’ve been interpreted as Dean asking Sam to keep hunting, or simply to keep “living”. I guess that debate will go on forever, like so many others.
November 21, 2020 at 5:14 pm in reply to: Let’s all talk about the SERIES FINALE Carry On (S15 E20) #3546
- This reply was modified 1 week, 4 days ago by kate38.
“I understood the restoration of humanity Jack-God performed last week to have all vanished people reappear. Therefore I would assume that Donna, Jodi, the girls, AU hunters, AU Charlie, AU Bobby (and the Doppelgangers) are all still in the world. Many of them know about the bunker. And I can believe that Sam would place a key with Donna or Jodi or maybe AU Bobby.
I didn’t understand as Sam walking away from the bunker forever. To me he definitely moved out, it being too painful to be there alone, but I would assume he would come back for the resources when needed. And I would have expected him to show his son.
I understand Sam’s son to be the main legacy now.”
But that’s just it, PNP. We didn’t actually see any of this. And it would’ve been very easy to add to the montage if the writers wanted us to know these things happened.
When Dean was preparing to say yes to Michael in “Point of No Return”, he put all his personal items (leather jacket, etc.) in a box addressed to Bobby Singer. In the final montage for “Carry On”, they could have shown Sam packing the bunker’s key into a box and preparing to mail it to Jody or Donna. THAT would have shown us that he was leaving the bunker and all its contents to other hunters. When Sam left with the dog, he took a long look around, like he was saying goodbye forever. And we saw all those shots of Sam with his son, but there’s no indication to me that little Dean became a hunter. He had an anti-possession tattoo, but that just means Sam wanted to protect him. That doesn’t say to me that he was a hunter. It also would’ve been VERY easy to show a clip of Sam showing his son around the bunker. The absence of something that easy makes me believe that little Dean had a “normal” life and had nothing to do with hunting.
By the way, I’m VERY glad they didn’t destroy the bunker at the end. That would’ve made this episode suck even more than it did.November 21, 2020 at 5:03 pm in reply to: Let’s all talk about the SERIES FINALE Carry On (S15 E20) #3545
what made it seem hollow and unhappy to you?”
Hey, PNP 🙂
We only saw Sam smile a few times in that whole montage. He smiled in the beginning when he picked up toddler Dean, and he may have smiled a little when he was playing ball in the yard with young Dean. Other than that, it looked to me like he was just going through the motions of being a good father.
When he was in the Impala, he looked like he was getting ready to cry or perhaps kill himself. At least that’s how it looked to me.
Sorry, but I don’t think that lady in the background was Eileen. The hair color looked too light.
I guess we all had a different take on that last montage.
kateNovember 19, 2020 at 11:49 pm in reply to: Let’s all talk about the SERIES FINALE Carry On (S15 E20) #3486
“…But am emotionally very not okay with Dean dying young after ALL he’s given, though my wife said it had to be that way because Dean would want Sam to go on and have a chance – but he did not even die FOR Sam. I have a problem that he died pretty much by accident.”
Agreed. Dean only had a brief time to live life without Chuck’s influence. And at first, it looked like he was getting bored with his life. I wanted him to have more time to live his life. And it infuriates me that his death was, as you said, an accident.
Dean deserved a better death. And Sam deserved a better life.
kateNovember 19, 2020 at 11:41 pm in reply to: Let’s all talk about the SERIES FINALE Carry On (S15 E20) #3485
Hi, Shannon —
All you said is very true.
I hate that Dean died so much earlier than Sam, and that he was killed by stunt vamp #3. Dean Winchester deserved a better, more majestic death if that’s what they were going for.
I hate that Sam spent MOST OF HIS LIFE (at least his final 40 years) going through the motions of “living” and pretending to have a normal family, but never really having true happiness. In that scene when Sam is sitting in the car, I thought he was going to kill himself. He clearly never stopped being miserable and pining for his brother.
As you said, the Sam from earlier seasons wanted a “normal life”, and ran away from hunting every chance he got. But by season 12, Sam was saying that hunting was his life and he loved it. Apparently NOT! He went on one hunt and then abandoned it? This finale erased all that character growth.
I hate that the Winchester brothers didn’t leave a palpable legacy. Their initials are carved into a table
in a room that nobody will ever see. All their knowledge, their journal, John’s journal — all that information died with Dean, since Sam walked away and didn’t do anything with it. What a waste. There was no indication that Sam ever even told his wife and son who he truly was. He didn’t pass his legacy on to anybody. What a waste of everything he’d learned over his years of hunting!
kateNovember 19, 2020 at 10:38 pm in reply to: Let’s all talk about the SERIES FINALE Carry On (S15 E20) #3480
What happened to the Winchester doppelgangers?
Sam locked up the bunker forever? He didn’t leave the key OR the brothers’ legacy to anybody? Such a waste.
Are we to assume that all the AU hunters who got zapped away came back? I get that with COVID they couldn’t bring people to Vancouver to film, but a phone call from Jody or Donna, to confirm they’re alive, would’ve been nice.
kateNovember 19, 2020 at 10:22 pm in reply to: Let’s all talk about the SERIES FINALE Carry On (S15 E20) #3479
Dean’s death scene was well done, but kinda long. It felt like they were drawing it out to make it more emotional, but it was already emotional, so it just seemed too long. I let myself go there, but I felt manipulated, so that stopped it from being as sad as it was supposed to be.
“How does a being that creates complex beauty and a soul for guidance, remorse and compassion have none of these attributes. As Chuck was retconned into an egotistical psychopath, he seems to be the antithesis of soul and beauty.”
This is one of my main gripes with the Chuck-is-a-villain story line. I’ve thought long and hard about whether my own beliefs are shading my judgement. I don’t think they are. I’d be TOTALLY on board with Chuck being a villain if it was done in a way that made sense for the character. The Chuck from season 5 was on their side, but the Chuck from seasons 14 and 15 were not. Why? What changed? We’re just supposed to believe that after countless millennia, he just got bored? What?! He’s a writer, and writers lie. Huh? When you take the most powerful entity in creation and turn him from an affable hermit prophet into a super villain, we deserve a back story and an explanation. We haven’t gotten one.
“Perhaps an audience of binge watching 13 year olds or perpetually disastified adults can also accept this childishly hateful inconsistency, but I can not.”
I’ve been thinking this, but I don’t know if I’ve said it in a post. It does feel like season 15 is not written for somebody like me. It feels like they’ve abandoned the “old guard” and have decided to write stories that clearly appeal to a different audience. It might sound selfish, but I do sort of feel abandoned. I used to connect to this show, its characters, and their stories, but now I don’t. Maybe that’s by design. It’s their show and of course they can do whatever they want with it, but if I’d tuned in to Supernatural for the first time in season 15, I’d never have watched the show past one or two episodes. That saddens me.
“This season has been a comic book lacking vision, depth and intelligence, with characters that are caricatures of themselves. No growth, save Jack, and only minimally, as everyone mostly sat around waiting for someone to tell them when and what to do with respect to an over the top mustache twirling villain.”
Also very true. But it makes more sense if your earlier comment is true. This final season wasn’t written for the same audience as the previous 14 seasons were.
On the up-side, there’s no point in targeting a younger audience unless you plan to DO something once you get their attention. Maybe there’s a long-game marketing strategy playing out? I read that Jensen and Danneel have started a production company, so maybe there’s something in the works. Movie? Who knows. I just hope there’s a point to all this and that they didn’t destroy this show for nothing.
- This reply was modified 2 weeks, 5 days ago by kate38.
Hey, PNP 🙂
I agree with all of this. The bunker has been their home and fortress for almost half of the whole series (season 8, right)? I hope it doesn’t get destroyed at the last minute just for dramatic effect. I hope it gets treated with respect.
“I find it peculiar that the chief criticisms of Chuck, hands off and doesn’t answer prayers, to be perfectly acceptable for Jack to have the same outlook. Of course they did negate the hands off aspect of Chuck by retconning him into a hyper obsessed control freak.”
I thought the same thing when he said that. What’s the difference between “abandoning” humanity and being “hands off” so humanity is left alone to decide it’s own destiny? Po-‘tay-to, Po-‘tah-to.
“A child running creation is better than an abusive adult? As long as the child is under the auspices of a dark destructive force, then everything should be okay? Why does this strike me as something sinister? Why was Chuck retconned to be hateful. Why does the dark destructive force who sucked out souls appear so kindly, old lady and the gingerbread house kindly? Jack’s 3 years old. There is no one who hasn’t manipulated him. Maybe it is the mother side of me that finds this resolution creepy.”
I agree with all of this! Everybody gets a redemption arc or at least some character growth except for God???? Amara went from being a dark, destructive force to pleading on humanity’s behalf last week (much like Metatron did at the end of his redemption arc). Jack (if you swallow his story with a spoonful of honey) went from being a naïve toddler to being god himself? It’s stupid character growth, but at least it’s character growth. The same writers chose to leave Chuck in the toilet as a character — no growth, no redemption, no depth to his story, no nothing. Somebody in the writers room must really hate god.