Home Forums Supernatural Fan Wiki Community Let’s all talk about the SERIES FINALE Carry On (S15 E20)

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    • #3457 Reply

      It’s hard to believe it’s here. The (probably) last-ever new Supernatural. At least the last for a long time. I am not sure what I’ll do without new episodes to look forward to – without tweets from the actors and crew on the set. I think that when there are no more new ones, I’ll even miss the crappy ones. Sam and Dean have been such a big and wonderful part of my life for so long. When I started watching I was 33. Now I’m almost 50. They are characters who are very embedded in me at this point. I love them so much and it’s difficult to think about not seeing them anymore. How do you stop caring about a fictional character? Of course I’ll rewatch. I’m starting next week with the pilot and will watch one episode a week, on Thursday nights, year in and year out until I’ve gone through it all again. But there is something about the immediacy of the Supernatural Family community that has been very reassuring season after season. It will be harder to keep those connections without new shows to discuss, but I’m determined to do that as much as possible. I do find some comfort in knowing that Jared and Jensen seem to love the show as much as we do. Jensen’s Stage-It panel online last weekend made that very clear (and Jared has an online panel this coming weekend after the finale so we’ll see what he has to say about everything). I have not been the biggest fan of the story lines and some of the writing in recent years, so maybe it IS time to pack it in. But I’m going to miss it so much. Even if I didn’t like that season’s arc, I always loved watching Sam and Dean.

      This week looks like perhaps an interesting choice. The big arc was wrapped up last week so are we going to see a sort of day-in-the-life or montage of what comes after? How their lives are without Chuck pulling the strings? It’s hard to tell from the promo photos though it looks like there is a hunt involved (interesting that the promos are more behind-the-scenes with some camera and Robert Singer visible). I am still fearful that the current show runner will have Sam and Dean die at the end. I do not trust Andrew Dabb at all. I have wished for more emotion in the big build-up to the final showdown with God (and I didn’t feel much) – they keep promising we’ll need tissues. I will because it’s ending. But I am skeptical that they can pull out all the emotion in this last episode somehow – unless Sam and Dean die. I really don’t want that.

      Here we go! One more time! I can’t wait to hear what everyone thinks!

    • #3476 Reply
      kate38
      Guest

      Well, my expectations were pretty low, but this episode still managed to not meet them.

      The retrospective was nice, but didn’t really give me anything unexpected. It was nice to see Mark Sheppard again.

      I liked the little Easter eggs and nods to earlier seasons. By the way, was that Bob Singer in the background when Dean got the pie in the face? It looked like Bob Singer, and he directed this episode. 😊

      Dean’s death scene was perfectly heartbreaking and perfectly executed. One of the best scenes in the entire series. However, are we to believe that the guy who has faced and defeated cosmic forces was killed by a simple vampire? That seemed cheap, like they needed to kill him, but didn’t have any good ideas.

      Bobby said that Cas helped change heaven. Does that mean Cas is in heaven? I can’t see how Cas could make any changes from the Empty.

      Other than that, I didn’t like this ending at all. I’m guessing Dean’s heaven montage was originally supposed to include reunions with his parents, Rufus, and the rest of the crew at the Roadhouse, but because of COVID, they just had Dean driving along heaven’s back roads while Sam continued hunting on Earth for 50 years or so?

      Although Sam got a “life” it seemed hollow — like he was never truly happy and spent decades faking having a life and a family. I guess the writers went back to that time when Sam said he wanted a normal life. So they thought it was okay to force Sam to live a whole life away from Dean and away from hunting. But it just felt hollow and empty to me. They were going for a level of sadness these characters didn’t deserve.

      I’m disappointed in so many things about this finale, but I’m grateful that I still have 14 ½ seasons to enjoy. I think these characters deserved a better ending.

      kate

      • This reply was modified 1 week, 4 days ago by kate38.
      • This reply was modified 1 week, 4 days ago by kate38.
      • #3520 Reply
        PigNaPoke
        Participant

        Although Sam got a “life” it seemed hollow — like he was never truly happy and spent decades faking having a life and a family. I guess the writers went back to that time when Sam said he wanted a normal life. So they thought it was okay to force Sam to live a whole life away from Dean and away from hunting. But it just felt hollow and empty to me. They were going for a level of sadness these characters didn’t deserve.

        Hey Kate,
        what made it seem hollow and unhappy to you?

        I felt that very differently. I agree that Sam wouldn’t have ever went looking for a family life on his own if Dean was still alive. However Dean has been pushing Sam towards Eileen as a possible partner ever since Eileen came into the picture. So with Dean’s dying wish for Sam to have a live and knowing that Eileen would be a good choice, seeing how she is a hunter herself and Dean liked her too, I can believe that Sam would have given that relationship a go.
        And I got melancholy, but not unhappiness from the Sam life montage.
        Like when he climbed into the Impala as a old man for example, it felt to me like he was feeling close to Dean there and that he missed him and that he maybe was “telling” Dean that he wouldn’t have to wait much longer, but he did not seem generally unhappy or suicidal to me.

        I am very sorry that it felt wrong and depressing to you!!!!!

        PNP

        • #3545 Reply
          kate38
          Keymaster

          “Hey Kate,
          what made it seem hollow and unhappy to you?”

          Hey, PNP 🙂
          We only saw Sam smile a few times in that whole montage. He smiled in the beginning when he picked up toddler Dean, and he may have smiled a little when he was playing ball in the yard with young Dean. Other than that, it looked to me like he was just going through the motions of being a good father.

          When he was in the Impala, he looked like he was getting ready to cry or perhaps kill himself. At least that’s how it looked to me.

          Sorry, but I don’t think that lady in the background was Eileen. The hair color looked too light.

          I guess we all had a different take on that last montage.

          kate

    • #3479 Reply
      kate38
      Keymaster

      Dean’s death scene was well done, but kinda long. It felt like they were drawing it out to make it more emotional, but it was already emotional, so it just seemed too long. I let myself go there, but I felt manipulated, so that stopped it from being as sad as it was supposed to be.

      • #3483 Reply
        Shannon
        Guest

        Yeah, calculated for maximum feeeeeels. Insincere and off putting. At least a far better performance than the hammed up one Misha gave. That was atrocious.

        Sad to see it though and needless. Everyone dies, eventually. I was very aware of the decision to make this definitive and someone else’s problem to reboot. Very obvious and very vindictive.

      • #3521 Reply
        PigNaPoke
        Participant

        Super interesting to me how different we all felt the episode!!

        I was hanging on every word in that scene. To me it felt like at first DEAN was drawing it out because he wasn’t ready to go and then SAM drew it out because he couldn’t let go of Dean when he was hanging on by a thread. But it didn’t feel too long to me.

        The asking for and giving of “permission” to let go was INCREDIBLY powerful to me personally – partially because I had a very similar experience with a dying friend. So the whole thing went straight under my skin even though I only realized WHY on the second watching of it.

        PNP

    • #3480 Reply
      kate38
      Keymaster

      So…

      What happened to the Winchester doppelgangers?

      Sam locked up the bunker forever? He didn’t leave the key OR the brothers’ legacy to anybody? Such a waste.

      Are we to assume that all the AU hunters who got zapped away came back? I get that with COVID they couldn’t bring people to Vancouver to film, but a phone call from Jody or Donna, to confirm they’re alive, would’ve been nice.

      kate

      • #3481 Reply
        Shannon
        Guest

        The writers just didn’t get them, at all. When Sam was young, he wanted a normal life, because he was too young to understand. As he grew up, he tried, but willingly stayed with Dean and the life out of love for his brother and the greater good. Sam had long since stopped wanting that normal life, and has said that is not who he is anymore. He liked his life and he loved the lore. He also understood the gold mine that was the bunker and never would have locked it up and moved on. Stereotyped and one note summation of the character.

        Dean dies without armor from God. Dabb made his point. It’s not about the characters, it’s about the writers. What a Jack ass.And the single note for Dean as well. Taking care of Sam. As if that is the sum total of Dean’s existence. Stereotyped and one note summation of the character.

        I loved seeing our Bobby. I hate even referencing Jack. I will never forgive what they did to Chuck or how that impacted the strength, skill, knowledge, rights and responsibilities of Sam and Dean.

        • #3485 Reply
          kate38
          Keymaster

          Hi, Shannon —

          All you said is very true.

          I hate that Dean died so much earlier than Sam, and that he was killed by stunt vamp #3. Dean Winchester deserved a better, more majestic death if that’s what they were going for.

          I hate that Sam spent MOST OF HIS LIFE (at least his final 40 years) going through the motions of “living” and pretending to have a normal family, but never really having true happiness. In that scene when Sam is sitting in the car, I thought he was going to kill himself. He clearly never stopped being miserable and pining for his brother.

          As you said, the Sam from earlier seasons wanted a “normal life”, and ran away from hunting every chance he got. But by season 12, Sam was saying that hunting was his life and he loved it. Apparently NOT! He went on one hunt and then abandoned it? This finale erased all that character growth.

          I hate that the Winchester brothers didn’t leave a palpable legacy. Their initials are carved into a table
          in a room that nobody will ever see. All their knowledge, their journal, John’s journal — all that information died with Dean, since Sam walked away and didn’t do anything with it. What a waste. There was no indication that Sam ever even told his wife and son who he truly was. He didn’t pass his legacy on to anybody. What a waste of everything he’d learned over his years of hunting!

          kate

        • #3523 Reply
          PigNaPoke
          Participant

          Hi Shannon,

          can you explain what you mean by “Dean didn’t have God’s armor”? Do you thing that the writers still wanted us to believe that without God’s writing Dean was out of “luck”?

          To me that part of the story line was finished after the GAMBLERS episode. My understanding to the “God made them normal” debacle was that in fact it wasn’t at all that God withdrew favor from them (even though he made them believe that) but that he instead put a damper on their OWN and natural abilities which is what caused them to feel normal and be clutsy. And that he put some type of whammy on them to have all the other unpleasant issues.

          But all that was lifted when Fortuna gave them the coin and their “luck” back.

          PNP

          • #3553 Reply
            Shannon
            Guest

            Hi PNP.

            Yes, I really do believe that Sam and Dean were intended to be only as good as God’s armor, aka Dabb and his team of chapped ass monkeys.

            Dabb etal were told specifically by the CW president that there will never be any spinoffs. “Viewers watch for Sam and Dean.” I am sure that Dabb went about determined to demonstrate that it is THE WRITERS that make the show, and that Sam and Dean are irrelevant.

            Season 14 focused almost exclusively on Jack. Sam and Dean mostly wrong their hands over Jack’s various stages oh health. When their was something heroic to be done, Jack took care of it, not Sam and Dean. Or Kaia took care of it; a wayward sister dispelled Michael from Dean. Jack killed the Ouroboros, Michael’s monsters, Michael, Nick, and sent Lucifer back to the Empty.
            During Moriah, it was made clear, by retconning Chuck into a psychopathic obsessed writer, that Sam and Dean were controlled, puppets, which further reduces them.

            Season 15 continues to make Sam and Dean largely ineffective with Jack starring as Belphegor the hero who saves them and the town, while they stand around and watch. Although Sam and Dean helped a little, sort of, Rowena saved the day when Jack as Belphegor and Castiel’s mission to save the day…failed. while we were forced to trudge through the next few episodes, while waiting for Jack, Sam and Dean mostly sat around the Bunker until Adam/Michael showed up and snapped his finger creating a rift to Purgatory and Sam foolishly got trapped. Dean fell asleep in Purgatory while Sam was tied to a chair. I suppose other things happened while waiting for Jack. I’m sure they involved other people’s ingenuity and cheap spells, and none of it involved Sam and Dean’s input, hard work, knowledge or skill. I simply can’t remember what it was except…

            For this. The Heroes Journey. Sam and Dean can’t cook, fix a car, pick a look or take out a monster. It doesnt matter that they “won” their luck back. The implication was reinforced in that episode, as well by calling years of hardworking honing their skill and knowledge “LUCK.” We saw that and heard that for 2 consecutive episodes. Reaffirming the idea that Sam and Dean operate on luck or God’s aka the writer.

            So on and so on, with useless Sam and Dean sitting around with nothing to do but be Messengers of God’s Destruction,while waiting for Billie or Jack to save the day. And the Jack saves the day and Chuck is replaced. He is replaced by Jack, who coincidently has the same hands off philosophy that Chuck did before they retconned him. This is compounded by Rowena nixing demon deals; no help there. Castiel is gone; no help there. Sam and Dean can’t collectively survive one hunt on their own.

            So, yes, that is exactly what I am saying.

      • #3522 Reply
        PigNaPoke
        Participant

        Hi Guys,

        I understood the restoration of humanity Jack-God performed last week to have all vanished people reappear. Therefore I would assume that Donna, Jodi, the girls, AU hunters, AU Charlie, AU Bobby (and the Doppelgangers) are all still in the world. Many of them know about the bunker. And I can believe that Sam would place a key with Donna or Jodi or maybe AU Bobby.

        I didn’t understand as Sam walking away from the bunker forever. To me he definitely moved out, it being too painful to be there alone, but I would assume he would come back for the resources when needed. And I would have expected him to show his son.

        I understand Sam’s son to be the main legacy now.

        I also found it heartwarming for Donna to send work Sam’s way, no doubt in an effort to prevent him from giving up hunting completely.

        I believe the Winchesters had enough chosen family left in the world and had influenced enough lives through their work that there are always people out there to carry on their legacy and work.

        PNP

        • #3546 Reply
          kate38
          Keymaster

          “I understood the restoration of humanity Jack-God performed last week to have all vanished people reappear. Therefore I would assume that Donna, Jodi, the girls, AU hunters, AU Charlie, AU Bobby (and the Doppelgangers) are all still in the world. Many of them know about the bunker. And I can believe that Sam would place a key with Donna or Jodi or maybe AU Bobby.

          I didn’t understand as Sam walking away from the bunker forever. To me he definitely moved out, it being too painful to be there alone, but I would assume he would come back for the resources when needed. And I would have expected him to show his son.

          I understand Sam’s son to be the main legacy now.”

          But that’s just it, PNP. We didn’t actually see any of this. And it would’ve been very easy to add to the montage if the writers wanted us to know these things happened.

          When Dean was preparing to say yes to Michael in “Point of No Return”, he put all his personal items (leather jacket, etc.) in a box addressed to Bobby Singer. In the final montage for “Carry On”, they could have shown Sam packing the bunker’s key into a box and preparing to mail it to Jody or Donna. THAT would have shown us that he was leaving the bunker and all its contents to other hunters. When Sam left with the dog, he took a long look around, like he was saying goodbye forever. And we saw all those shots of Sam with his son, but there’s no indication to me that little Dean became a hunter. He had an anti-possession tattoo, but that just means Sam wanted to protect him. That doesn’t say to me that he was a hunter. It also would’ve been VERY easy to show a clip of Sam showing his son around the bunker. The absence of something that easy makes me believe that little Dean had a “normal” life and had nothing to do with hunting.

          By the way, I’m VERY glad they didn’t destroy the bunker at the end. That would’ve made this episode suck even more than it did.

    • #3482 Reply

      Long ago, I said they’d die (I thought/hoped together) and they’d go to heaven TO THE ROADHOUSE and everyone they loved would be there to welcome them. Which would have been exactly what happened if not for covid.

      So in many ways it was exactly as I expected, not what I wanted, and beautifully executed. It was so beautifully done and acted that I cannot hate it.

      It did kill me that:

      Dean did not get more time to live life free from Chuck. That was wrong.

      Sam alone in the bunker made me nauseous. Thank God for the dog or I would have wanted to kill myself watching Sam sit alone in Dean’s room where it looked like he’d come back any minute or cooking breakfast alone where the toaster made him flinch.

      After everything, Samm just let Dean go. Are we to believe Sam learned his lesson about making deals, finally? But after ALL they’ve gone through, this felt like Dean survived the war only to be killed in a minor car crash – a run-of-the-mill hunt.

      Sam holding the Impala steering wheel like he could FEEL Dean driving in heaven was so painful and beautiful but the makeup (or lack thereof) there was so bad – a cardigan and a wig??? – that it took me out of the scene a bit.

      AT LEAST Dean didn’t have to do anything but go for a drive, because time is weird in heaven, before Sam lived 50 more years and showed up.

      It felt wrong to me to separate them for that long because, I agree with Kate, that Sam’s life would never have been truly happy without Dean.

      What did Sam die of in the end?

      I know that, realistically, Supernatural is not going to give us a happy ending. I know that. But am emotionally very not okay with Dean dying young after ALL he’s given, though my wife said it had to be that way because Dean would want Sam to go on and have a chance – but he did not even die FOR Sam. I have a problem that he died pretty much by accident.

      • #3486 Reply
        kate38
        Keymaster

        “…But am emotionally very not okay with Dean dying young after ALL he’s given, though my wife said it had to be that way because Dean would want Sam to go on and have a chance – but he did not even die FOR Sam. I have a problem that he died pretty much by accident.”

        Agreed. Dean only had a brief time to live life without Chuck’s influence. And at first, it looked like he was getting bored with his life. I wanted him to have more time to live his life. And it infuriates me that his death was, as you said, an accident.

        Dean deserved a better death. And Sam deserved a better life.

        kate

        • #3524 Reply
          PigNaPoke
          Participant

          I COMPLETELY agree with the statement that DEAN deserved a longer life after all he has given to the world!!!

          Absolutely, yes! I did not WANT Dean to die young!!! There is no joy in it for me.

          And I honestly do not understand WHY that decision was made??? There is no reason for it AND it makes no good business sense!! Even if you wanted to kill Dean earlier than Sam would die, why not leave a nice long stretch of time between the defeat of Chuck and that incident in order to possibly set a reboot or movie in?

          But I don’t see Sam’s life as unhappy.

          PNP

    • #3484 Reply

      I agree with a lot of what you said Shannon.

    • #3493 Reply

      Okay. I have more thoughts the next morning. I couldn’t fall asleep last night, then couldn’t stay asleep, and when I was asleep I had a horrible dream that my best friends had died and I was now all alone like Sam. I was very glad to wake up from that dream.

      Yup, it totally got to me.

      So I got up, went for a long walk, then, since I was alone in the house, I turned the sound way up and re-watched Dean’s death, then Sam’s death, then them meeting up in heaven so I could hear everything perfectly.

      I think the ending was good. If SAM had died, Dean would been undone or suicidal, I think. He would have become, I think, harder or more self-destructive. I think about Jensen’s original imagined/dreamed ending where he meets a stranger on a motorcycle in the middle of nowhere and hands him the keys to the Impala and he takes the bike; because Sam’s gone and he doesn’t need a car with a passenger seat. I think that would have been more cruel for Dean; to live without Sam. While Dean did not go out in a blaze of glory, he DID go down swinging. He went down fighting. With Sam. And Sam was with him when he died; he got to say what was most important to say. So, that’s a lot for Dean to get – that felt like he had that part of things the way he needed them. Time to tell Sam what he needed to tell him. Sam with him and telling him what he needed to hear too.

      Dean died happier knowing Sam was NOT dying. He would always rather he die than Sam.

      It was not fair for Sam. But he did get more experiences, and a son, and got to be a better father than his own father. And Sam did not have to die alone either – he was with his son who obviously loved him. The parallel tears when Dean died, then Sam years later was just gut wrenching. Someone on Twitter also pointed out that Sam was wearing Dean’s watch when he died.

      And when they met up in heaven, Dean just looked satisfied. Like all was right again. That was good. Was that version of Carry On Briana’s version? It was so incredibly beautiful and so perfect for the very end. We got the rock version with Dean driving; then that one when they were reunited (and during Sam’s death). It was just so freakin’ beautiful.

      Last night I was unhappy that Dean did not die saving Sam or in some huge blaze of glory, but he did get the heaven he deserved, one that an entity HE HELPED RAISE set up to be better than anything that came before. The song was beautiful. The setting (heaven) was beautiful. That all felt very right to me. Though I wanted his death to be more “important”, when I think about it, he had NOTHING left to prove as Dean has sacrificed himself so many different ways for so many different people over the years.

      So I watched it again (just those few parts) and cried my eyes out and took a shower and cried my eyes out and hope that now that I’m at work I won’t keep crying my eyes out. I’ve always loved Supernatural for being funny and tragic. Like Mystery Spot. It was both here (only a tiny bit of “funny” at the start).

      I cannot hate Andrew Dabb for that ending. It was too beautiful.

      My own love for Sam and Dean makes me so sad but they are not superhuman. They were going to have to die someday and some way. When I think about what DEAN would want…well, I can see this as one version of something Dean would want or expect for himself.

      And Sam got to pass on their knowledge to his son who was obviously some sort of hunter with the tattoo. If they had both died at once, that (except for whatever they’d written down) would have been lost.

      I called the Roadhouse in heaven thing long ago. I feel somewhat vindicated there…I had said awhile back that they would die and walk into the Roadhouse and everyone would be there. That WOULD have been an even less painful ending, but it was very powerful (and, probably better in the end) to have just the two of them. It helped soften things to have Bobby there. I’m glad they went to the trouble of getting him and quarantining him for just a few minutes of screen time.

      The dog should have shown up in heaven long before Sam – like, Dean should have slowed down and picked it up on the side of the road at some point in his split-second 40-year drive.

      What does everyone think about the masked vampires? I honestly thought they did that so that some poor actor with a face did not get all the hate for being the one who killed Dean Winchester. We’ve never seen vampires wearing masks before – some kind of weird vampire sect? They were recorded way back in John’s journal. SPN vampires have never worn masks – ever. I thought they kind of got in the way. PigNaPoke said perhaps that was supposed to be the stand-in suggesting that any faceless monster (any type of monster) could have been the one to kill Dean and this was how his end would go no matter what killed him.

      For God’s sake, everyone, if you have a piece of sharp rebar sticking out of a post at chest or waist level, go take that shit down today!

      I love this show. I love this family. I loved their thank-you at the end. This ending did not destroy any of that. I’m very very very sad it’s over. It will take me some time to be okay and not think, every time I watch an episode “Dean dies and leaves Sam alone” – but I’m sure I’ll get to a point where I won’t think that.

      I wonder if Jensen was just unhappy with Dean dying because he wanted them to be able to come back, or if there were other reasons when he initially read the script? Maybe he’ll talk about it someday. He’s usually pretty honest; like about how he hated the Lucifer showdown season finale when it LOOKED like they were flying around on strings.

      I WILL say it greatly affected me.

      • #3525 Reply
        PigNaPoke
        Participant

        Hi JBB, I agree 100% with everything you so eloquently said and felt very similarly about it all.

        I, too, had always thought Sam and Dean’s heaven would include a get together at the Road House and many past lost friends and family. It makes me sad that the pandemic obviously took THAT from us, too.

        I do love that we all have different opinions and can discuss them freely here!!!

        I love that the show has such deep and lasting effect on so many people.

        I will NEVER stop loving the show and all it has brought to my life!!!

        I am HUGELY sad that it is over and I am sure I will never again get THIS involved in any other show.

        But if it had to end, I am glad it was this way. I had MANY visions of worse (for me) endings.

        PNP

      • #3547 Reply
        kate38
        Keymaster

        “If SAM had died, Dean would been undone or suicidal, I think. He would have become, I think, harder or more self-destructive.”

        Hmmm…
        I’m curious to hear what everyone else thinks, but I think that if Sam had died, Dean would’ve kept hunting. Dean has always been more committed to the “family business” than Sam has. Dean’s never willingly walked away from that commitment to save people. I think Dean would’ve considered it an obligation to John, Sam, and everyone else who has supported them along the way to keep hunting.

        In contrast, Sam has spent most of his life running from that responsibility. He seemed to turn around by season 10, when he told Charlie that hunting is his life and he loves it, but he doesn’t want to do it without his brother.

        Interestingly, while Dean was dying this time, he had plenty of time to tell Sam to find a nice girl and settle down, but he didn’t. He told Sam to “always keep fighting”. That could’ve been interpreted as Dean asking Sam to keep hunting, or simply to keep “living”. I guess that debate will go on forever, like so many others.

        kate

        • This reply was modified 1 week, 3 days ago by kate38.
    • #3495 Reply

      The thought crossed my mind…though Sam and Dean are human, were they trying to say that they only STAYED alive through all those earlier extraordinary circumstances because God made sure they did? Without God (even an evil God), they are now extra-human and can die in a regular fight in spite of their skills? I have to admit I DID want Dean to be more superhero, but that’s not what Supernatural has tried to convey over the years.

      • #3526 Reply
        PigNaPoke
        Participant

        Hey JBB,
        I really don’t think THAT was was the writers had in mind!!! That would carelessly undo fifteen years of having the Winchesters expand their knowledge and gain skills. To me that part of them was never influenced by God’s writing. Didn’t he say at some point that he set scenarios and gave them plot lines but their movement through that was their decision and could surprise him? To me God set up the characters (maybe) and set them loose, but a lot of what they BECAME was their doing and free will. I don’t buy that with God’s defeat the Winchesters became LESSER.

        And even IF their power and prowess was linked to God’s existence then shouldn’t the power Jack sucked out of Chuck be enough to tether the Winchester’s power too? In that case they wouldn’t be “less” now either.

        PNP

      • #3551 Reply
        kate38
        Keymaster

        “The thought crossed my mind…though Sam and Dean are human, were they trying to say that they only STAYED alive through all those earlier extraordinary circumstances because God made sure they did? Without God (even an evil God), they are now extra-human and can die in a regular fight in spite of their skills? I have to admit I DID want Dean to be more superhero, but that’s not what Supernatural has tried to convey over the years.”

        Hey, JBB 🙂
        This is exactly what I think! They wanted Chuck out of their lives, but this was a case of “be careful what you wish for.” They don’t have “bad” luck, like before the pool hall episode. But they also don’t have plot armor or heroes luck. They are cosmically naked. So yes — without those literary protections, you get a mundane, blue collar death like getting impaled on a giant nail.

        kate

    • #3497 Reply

      I disagree with the idea that Sam walked away from the bunker. To me, I felt he HAD to walk away right then. Living there without Dean was SO INCREDIBLY PAINFUL to watch. But he got a call on Dean’s old phone and it reminded him of his purpose. I think he left to do that hunt. To try to help someone to work through his grief. I know it appeared that he and his family lived in a totally different house (obviously not the bunker), but Sam’s son was also obviously a hunter with the anti-possession tattoo OR at least Sam had to tell him enough about hunting to understand why he had to get that tattoo. I took that as his son being SOME kind of hunter or at least knowledgeable. In my mind, the bunker became a resource. In my mind, it wasn’t that Sam never went back, it’s that he could not live there without Dean.

      • #3527 Reply
        PigNaPoke
        Participant

        Hehe, I said the same thing, JBB.
        I agree with you.

        PNP

      • #3552 Reply
        kate38
        Keymaster

        “I know it appeared that he and his family lived in a totally different house (obviously not the bunker), but Sam’s son was also obviously a hunter with the anti-possession tattoo OR at least Sam had to tell him enough about hunting to understand why he had to get that tattoo. I took that as his son being SOME kind of hunter or at least knowledgeable. In my mind, the bunker became a resource. In my mind, it wasn’t that Sam never went back, it’s that he could not live there without Dean.”

        I watched that montage a few more times, and I didn’t see any evidence that little Dean was a hunter. Yes, he had an anti-possession tattoo, but that just says to me that Sam wanted to protect him. Mrs. Tran and Chuck Shurley’s book publisher both have tattoos, and they weren’t hunters.

        If little Dean was a hunter, it would’ve been really easy to show us that. I looked closely at the books that were on the table when Sam was helping little Dean with his homework. One of the books had an American flag on the cover, so I’m guessing it was a history book. They could’ve easily made that an old-looking lore book, or John’s journal, or (gulp) the Book of the Damned — anything to show that it was about the supernatural. But they didn’t. The Impala stayed in the garage under a dusty tarp. Her trunk was FULL of weapons and warded against demons. It would’ve made sense to show Sam with his son in the car or at least looking into the trunk to make sure the kid knew what was in there. They didn’t show us any of that.

        I don’t think little Dean was a hunter. I agree that Sam left the bunker because living there was too painful. But I don’t see any evidence that he did anything related to hunting (after that last case for Donna’s colleague, of course). I think he walked away and kept his son out of the life, too.

        Considering hunting killed Dean, I can understand Sam wanting to keep his son out of the life. I completely forgive Sam if that was his choice. However, walking away from all his knowledge, abandoning the wealth of artifacts and lore in the bunker, not passing John’s journal onto another hunter — all of that seems like an unforgivable waste to me.

        kate

        • This reply was modified 1 week, 2 days ago by kate38.
    • #3498 Reply

      I loved them thanking us at the end. And the drone shot of the whole crew. It’s always felt like a family and it really continues to feel that way – more than ever.

      • #3528 Reply
        PigNaPoke
        Participant

        THAT was awesome!!!

        I have to say the “LONG ROAD HOME” episode was not very impressive!! It was nice, but it felt like a bonus extra on the season bluray. There wasn’t really anything new to be gained from it.

        I fully expected some behind the scenes of the last season footage or maybe some “what are they doing now” thing.

        But again, it was nice.

        PNP

    • #3517 Reply
      PigNaPoke
      Participant

      Hi Y’All,
      pardon the delay….I needed a little while and a second watch to organize my feelings.

    • #3518 Reply
      PigNaPoke
      Participant

      Hi Y’All,
      pardon the delay….I needed a little while and a second watch to organize my feelings.

      Secondly, please forgive me for NOT reading everyone’s comments before unloading my view points here.

      And it’s very important for me to say THIS IS ONLY MY PERSONAL VIEW!!!! I completely understand and respect anyone’s opinions to differ from mine.

      We are all so deeply touched by, attached to and affected by the Winchester Brothers in so many different ways that I don’t think there is ONE RIGHT opinion, just a multitude of beautifully complex view points depending on how we relate to the characters.

      SO, with that said, here are my VERY PERSONAL feelings:
      On first watch I liked the episode and ending of our 15-year journey a lot.
      On second watch I have to say I LOVED IT! And I feel the masochistic urge to watch it again just now, but I know I need a break and let it percolate a little first.

      Don’t get me wrong, I was definitely SHOCKED and SICKENED that they would let Dean die so very soon after they finally managed to get out from under the constant manipulation by Chuck and had a whole “normal” hunting life together in front of them!!!! THAT part – the much too short time – is the only part I really resent for the sake of the characters. They could have easily given us the impression that more time passed before the doomed hunt!

      But there was so much I did like about the episode that I was able to deal with the shocking death of my favorite character.

      LOVED the starting montage of normal life at the bunker. (I would have liked a little conversation about “what are we doing to do now that we’re free” “hunting, of course” before that, though)

      LOVED the visit to the pie fest including the pie face and that Dean ate the pie OFF his face as a nice harkening back to fun, silly episodes of the past!

      LOVED every single scene between Sam and Dean – I thought it was excellent dialogue writing and of course J2 knocked it all out of the park.

      LOVED what Jack did in Heaven!! Breaking down all the walls to let people actually have an “AFTER LIFE” and not just a rerun of their favorite memories!! (Would have liked a little more on HOW CAS helped??!!)

      LOVED to have REAL Bobby back!! (I chose to believe everyone else was partying at the Roadhouse – and that Sam and Dean joined the party after meeting up on the bridge. (that was probably the part that got X-d because of covid)

      LOVED that Sam honored Dean’s last request and went on to live a full live (in my head there is no doubt that the woman was EILEEN), had a kid named Dean and obviously indoctrinated that son into the family business (judging by the son’s antipossession tattoo)!!!! He left a Winchester legacy this way! And I find it comforting to know that there is another Winchester in the world with knowledge of the bunker and the friends out there and the able to retell the EPIC story of Sam and Dean’s life (maybe document it).

      LOVED that Dean chose to spend his time in heaven with a joy ride in Baby while waiting for Sam. (And what GORGEOUS drone shots that brought on!!!)

      LOVED that Sam and Dean got back together and now have an eternity of after life together.

      LOVED the chosen music and its placement throughout. GREAT new version of Carry On at the end was haunting and beautiful to me.

      I don’t even mind that a ‘simple’ vampire overpowered Dean (he was a burley SOB!!) and that bad luck during a ‘normal’ hunt killed him (IF HE HAD TO DIE….)!! That, to me, just showed that despite all the immense skill and superior knowledge and outstanding tools they have access to Sam and Dean are still only HUMAN.

      I feel VERY STRONGLY that what made me fall in love with the Winchesters and make them heroes to me is that they are NOT superheroes, can’t fly, don’t have special powers, are scared at times, are vulnerable always, BUT go out and fight and make the world a better place ANYWAY!!! The are relatable that way like no other hero character out there is to me.

      The masks on the vampires didn’t bother me either. To me it symbolized that ANY faceless monster could be the death of our heroes.

      So, there was a lot I very much found touching, thoughtful, heart-wrenching, fitting and compelling about the episode but the scene in the barn preceding Dean’s death was truly blowing my mind and I couldn’t take my eyes off it (even though I SOBBED through it!):
      For me that scene was one of THE BEST EVER on the show because it had the combined weight of fifteen years of rich story lines AND the actors knowledge and love for the characters AND the actors very personal goodbye from these characters behind it!! It’s the most POWERFUL thing I have ever seen AND FELT watching! I love letter between the brothers -on screen and off. Completely open and vulnerable!!!

      Dean’s speech to Sam was INCREDIBLE!!!! Telling Sam that he was his rock all along, that he was scared when he first picked him up for fear of being kicked to the curb, that he looked up to Sam for being smart and tough and strong, that he wouldn’t have made it without him, that he needs him to Always Keep Fighting, that he will always be there with him….it all was PERFECT and things I long “knew” in my heart but was appreciating to hear!!
      Dean has always been the ultimate champion for Sam, out of deep love, and now he was still protective and fighting for Sam until his LAST BREATH, asking for Sam’s permission to go!!! That about KILLED ME!!!! And Jensen is simply a GOD to me. There is no one out there who could have pulled this off better.

      I thought Jared completely held his own as well and ripped my heart out in the barn scene and his lonely wanderings and silent tears in the bunker after.

      Yes, I can freely admit that this was not my ideal ending and I can also say that it would have been VASTLY preferable to me to know that they are still “out there” and protecting the world even if we cannot see them.
      I was also not in great favor to have the brothers separated for so long – especially from Sam’s view.
      But I found it compelling story telling to give Sam that long life and family he didn’t seek but (to me) got to enjoy before reuniting with Dean in Heaven.

      And to me Dean was at peace in Heaven and seemed fulfilled when Sam joined him there.
      Beautifully at peace and done….JUST like the song says.

      I also appreciated the many easter eggs I saw (mostly on second run through):
      – Dabb’s pies was written on the food truck at the Pie Fest
      – Sam and Dean introduced themselves to the police officer as FBI Agents Singer and Kripke
      – Sam was wearing Dean’s watch on his death bed
      – First and last words spoked by (adult) Dean in the entire run of the series were “Hey, Sammy”
      – Baby had her old plates back in heaven
      – Sam and Dean wore the same clothes on the bridge at the end as while hunting in the Pilot.
      I’m sure there were more…

      I know there are a lot of mixed feelings about the writers and creators of the show. And I did not love everyone’s effort and view points equally, BUT NO MATTER if I liked the ending or not, I do not have ANY DOUBT that everyone involved making it put their heart blood into it!!!!

      And I can accept this version of the end of the road for the Winchesters as a carefully crafted artistic expression of the show creators and involved talent with satisfaction and as fitting for our show.

      PNP

      • #3544 Reply
        Shannon
        Guest

        Hi PNP,

        I am not replying to rain on your parade. As I was reading your thoughts and feelings, I found myself happy for your respective and applauding the end.

        Just a couple of thoughts as they occurred to me while reading. As a send off and the inevitable conclusion to the lives of mortal men, it was lovely.

        The problem for me is what preceded it. A year or even 2 where Sam and Dean were mortals in cosmic chaos with no self-diection, agency or importance. They were forgotten and then they died. That is what I cannot forgive. A sweet afterthought of a sendoff does not mitigate 2 years of absence. I feel Dean dying in this very accidental way could have played in earlier seasons, but not this one. Chuck was retconned from benign God who stepped aside to let his baby grow up with freewill and morality. Even though we did not know of Chuck specifically, we always believed as Sam and Dean always believed that it was their will, their strength, their love of family and humanity that enabled them to be mortal heroes. The retcon of Chuck destroyed that. We saw them incompetent as a meta joke. So, Dean dying by accident within days of eliminating Chuck sends an entirely different message. Not that I accept that message or this season. But, the message remains, nonetheless. Without divine intervention these hapless mortals could never have accomplished anything. The writers didn’t allow Sam and Dean to get through one single hunt, that they have been doing for years, without one of them dying, without Chuck or Jack aka the writers protection. This season wasn’t about Sam and Dean or any of the characters. It was about the writers. Meta and vindictive over resentment of failed spinoffs. Again, any other season it could end with a fitting and poetic bereavement. But NOT this one.

    • #3549 Reply
      kate38
      Keymaster

      “For God’s sake, everyone, if you have a piece of sharp rebar sticking out of a post at chest or waist level, go take that shit down today!”

      LOL!!! You crack me up, JBB! I think we all needed that guffaw today 🙂 Thanks!!

      kate

    • #3550 Reply
      kate38
      Keymaster

      “I have to say the “LONG ROAD HOME” episode was not very impressive!! It was nice, but it felt like a bonus extra on the season bluray. There wasn’t really anything new to be gained from it.

      I fully expected some behind the scenes of the last season footage or maybe some “what are they doing now” thing.

      But again, it was nice.

      PNP”

      I agree, PNP!!!!
      The retrospective felt “nice”, but I didn’t learn anything and there was nothing unexpected. And you’re right that it felt like something that will be on the DVD. It probably will.
      I would’ve LOVED more behind-the-scenes footage like they crunched in at the end. THAT would’ve been fun! Boy, could I use the season gag reel today 🙁

      kate

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