Let’s all talk about Heart (S2 E17)

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    • journalbookbinder
        September 17, 2021 at 1:08 pm #9880

        Oh Boy.


        ‘Nuf said.

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      • kate38
          September 17, 2021 at 1:08 pm #9885

          I don’t have that much to say about this one…

          Sorry, but I don’t like Madison as much as I’m supposed to. It’s fine to flirt with the guy if you think he’s cute, but it was a bit over-the-top to dump your underwear on the table in front of a dude you just met. It reeked of desperation or something. I know Madison is a fan favorite, but she never really appealed to me. And the sofa conversation scene between her and Sam was cringy. The sex scene was effective, but that was choreographed and without dialogue, so that may be why it worked. Anyway, I think I was supposed to like and pity Madison, but I didn’t. I get that she didn’t know she was a monster, but I had a hard time caring. It was also cowardly to make someone else kill you because you lack the courage to do it yourself. The actress did a fine job. I just didn’t care for the character. I felt bad for Sam for having to kill her, but I just didn’t pity her.

          Hey, did you guys recognize Olivette – head of the Grand Coven? She was the coroner in this episode 😊.

          Whenever I watch that motel scene between Dean and Sam (when they’re talking about finding bodies with missing hearts), I can’t stop thinking about the clip from this scene that ended up in the gag reel. It always gives me a chuckle. 😊

          The last scene is one thing I agree with most fans about. It was very well done. All three actors’ performances were exceptional, and this was a rare Sam moment from the early seasons that I thought was well acted and told a good story for this character. I love that Jensen flinched when he heard the gunshot. He is always so in-the-moment and such perfection!


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        • journalbookbinder
            September 17, 2021 at 1:08 pm #10167

            I put it off and put it off and put it off until I was several weeks behind our scheduled re-watch, but I finally watched Heart.

            Damn, it’s so good.

            I LOVE MADISON! So smart, sympathetic, and as great an acting job as Jared did here, I think she even bested him for being natural in the role. Great chemistry with Jared too. I liked everything you didn’t, Kate. I did like her and sympathize with her as being a victim and an unknowing one. The part I had the hardest time with was her instant acceptance of her own death as the only way. That seems like a very fast change in her feelings. She didn’t even know she was killing people and she suddenly realizes that suicide (essentially) is the only way.

            I also liked the misdirection. Was the werewolf her old boyfriend? Only to find out it was the guy who mugged her and the reveal that it’s HER is still a great surprise.

            Jared was great here, but I still feel like Jensen outdid him with the final scene alone. She flinch is so damn perfect (thank you, Kim Manners) and the scene where Dean comes up behind Madison and gently takes the gun from her hand; indicating that he doesn’t want this job to fall to Sam, breaks my heart.

            I thought it was really compelling and really good with such GREAT lighting and close angles.

            But it kills me and it’s hard for me to watch because I hate to see them in pain. Of course it’s a metaphor for Sam feeling like he’s an un-save-able monster. That is sad too. I also appreciate the few moments of humor. Dean “working” in the strip club. Dean feeling surprised that Madison is clearly more interested in Sam than in him.

            I think the underwear-on-the-table scene was not so much a sexual come-on. To me, Madison wanted Sam to relax. Asked if he wanted to sit on the couch. She didn’t. So she made it uncomfortable for him at the table so he WOULD move to the couch.

            I don’t like the way they didn’t follow through with mythology. The lore around werewolves changes over the years. But I like it here.

            I still teared up.

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          • journalbookbinder
              September 17, 2021 at 1:08 pm #10168

              I did recognize Olivette! But couldn’t put my finger on who she was!

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            • PigNaPoke
                September 17, 2021 at 1:08 pm #10239

                HAHA – FIRST I want to say HOW MUCH I LOVE coming to this page and reading two COMPLETELY different views from the two super knowledgeable SPN fans (and loved sisters) I most respect and admire!

                ALL VIEWS are valid and important and interesting. I love that we are so varied.


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              • PigNaPoke
                  September 17, 2021 at 1:08 pm #10241

                  I LOVE/HATE this one! It is one of my favorite episodes that season for sure AND one of the ones hardest to watch for me because it’s so sad.

                  I too LOVE Madison. I feel for her BUT I never pity her. I am not sure we are supposed to pity her either!
                  I admire her strength, independence, decisiveness and confidence. A person that takes being mugged and assaulted to mean that change in her life is necessary and that she won’t let the feat rule her, is admirable to me. She is not a victim character, not helpless and meek and in need of rescuing but also smart enough to know when she does need help. That is courageous to me.

                  I also really enjoy that she isn’t intimidated by these two gorgeous guys but holds her own AND is pretty clear in her attention on and intention for Sam. HAHA. I didn’t mind that either! The “dump the lingerie drawer” scene makes me giggle every time. Is it very forward…YES….but I don’t think at that particular point it’s actually meant as a come on. I read it as trying to keep going with her life and a normal routine after something scared her and not letting the invasion of a “cop” into her house intimidate her. She offers Sam to sit on the couch to be comfortable, but also because she has stuff to do like folding laundry and catching up on her TV show. That’s it. Sam can sit where he likes while she’s doing it. I love that.

                  I found the chemistry between Sam and Madison so compelling and natural that it read as real to me (thanks to the actors, of course). There was some awkwardness, which is to be expected, of course, but also an immediate “sizing each other up” and finding each other interesting and a little judging. Sure, in real life none of that would work on fast track like this, but we are watching a fantasy series with limited time, so I can forgive that. I found this believable as a possible hook up for Sam, who prefers his ladies to have a little more to offer than a beautiful outside. And I can buy it as a casual hook up for her as well. All that worked for me. And the sex scene was beautifully shot, I thought, with lots of suggestive angles and glimpses of body parts and great lighting. It clearly conveyed to me that both liked their encounter to be a bit more “energetic” and “exhuberant” but it seemed well balanced between them.

                  What made Madison even more impressive is when she is tied to a chair, clearly terrified of the huge dude in her house who seemed to have lost his mind all of a sudden, but she tries to convince SAM that HE needs help. That is a great scene and very moving.

                  I also really liked Jared’s acting when he finds out that Madison is the werewolf. He has a great moment where his facial expression goes from regret for what could have been to cold business mode of not letting more people get hurt. It’s chilling and makes very clear how dangerous Sam can be if he chooses to be.

                  I enjoyed the case a lot, too. Love how excited Dean is when he deduces that they are hunting a werewolf. I appreciate that there were a few twists in the story. I don’t mind so much that werewolf lore changed over the years as it seems “realistic” to me that they learn new things about even established monster species. However, I do find it sad that in this instance here they feel like there is no other way out than to kill Madison when later they let werewolves live (AND they have let ‘vegetarian’ vampires live before this)!! I would rather trust Madison to figure out how to live with this than that girl from “Bitten” later….

                  I, too, find Dean’s consternation that Madison goes for Sam and not him funny. Love that he calls after the hooker he saves on the street “don’t mention it”.

                  And I LOVE that we see the first use of rock-paper-sissors in this episode, especially in the context of SAM standing up for something he wants and obviously thinking he has a better chance at beating Dean at this than arguing he way out. HA!

                  When it comes time to step up and be there, however, Dean has lots of great moments in this episode, too. After his initial “shock” that the girl wants Sam, he tries so hard to let Sam have some fun and teases him big brotherly about it. That is super cute to me. And when Sam runs to Dean after Madison turns the second time (by the way, WHY is Sam running to the motel and not calling Dean??) and Dean calmly takes charge and is the voice of reason going forward as hard as it is to see Sam and Madison go through their trauma. Dean’s the rock.

                  When it comes to the last few scenes my heart breaks for all the reasons you already mentioned and EVERY TIME I watch it. The desperation of Sam wanting to save Madison partially because he wants to believe that monsters CAN be saved and that there is a chance for himself as well is so palpable. The way Madison is begging for Sam to help her die and Dean’s enormous heart to step in and offer to do it gives me goosebumps. (And she is a VERY pretty crier!!) Sam’s sense of duty but also resignation in having to do what’s right and what Madison asked of him and (in my head at least) symbolically killing part of his own hope that he might be redeemable makes me cry alongside them. UGH. And that last moment in the kitchen, when Sam asks Dean to wait for him there, clearly appreciating Dean’s support and strength and Dean’s sadness over being unable to save Sam from this pain is SO RAW and REAL, it cracks my heart wide open.

                  So, yes, I hate that the Winchesters are in such pain and I hate that Madison can’t be saved BUT it’s so beautifully done and acted and written it still ranks really high for me. 8 out of 10


                  • This reply was modified 2 years, 4 months ago by PigNaPokePigNaPoke.
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              Let’s all talk about Heart (S2 E17)

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