PigNaPoke
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Hey JBB,
I really don’t think THAT was was the writers had in mind!!! That would carelessly undo fifteen years of having the Winchesters expand their knowledge and gain skills. To me that part of them was never influenced by God’s writing. Didn’t he say at some point that he set scenarios and gave them plot lines but their movement through that was their decision and could surprise him? To me God set up the characters (maybe) and set them loose, but a lot of what they BECAME was their doing and free will. I don’t buy that with God’s defeat the Winchesters became LESSER.And even IF their power and prowess was linked to God’s existence then shouldn’t the power Jack sucked out of Chuck be enough to tether the Winchester’s power too? In that case they wouldn’t be “less” now either.
PNP
Hi JBB, I agree 100% with everything you so eloquently said and felt very similarly about it all.
I, too, had always thought Sam and Dean’s heaven would include a get together at the Road House and many past lost friends and family. It makes me sad that the pandemic obviously took THAT from us, too.
I do love that we all have different opinions and can discuss them freely here!!!
I love that the show has such deep and lasting effect on so many people.
I will NEVER stop loving the show and all it has brought to my life!!!
I am HUGELY sad that it is over and I am sure I will never again get THIS involved in any other show.
But if it had to end, I am glad it was this way. I had MANY visions of worse (for me) endings.
PNP
I COMPLETELY agree with the statement that DEAN deserved a longer life after all he has given to the world!!!
Absolutely, yes! I did not WANT Dean to die young!!! There is no joy in it for me.
And I honestly do not understand WHY that decision was made??? There is no reason for it AND it makes no good business sense!! Even if you wanted to kill Dean earlier than Sam would die, why not leave a nice long stretch of time between the defeat of Chuck and that incident in order to possibly set a reboot or movie in?
But I don’t see Sam’s life as unhappy.
PNP
Hi Shannon,
can you explain what you mean by “Dean didn’t have God’s armor”? Do you thing that the writers still wanted us to believe that without God’s writing Dean was out of “luck”?
To me that part of the story line was finished after the GAMBLERS episode. My understanding to the “God made them normal” debacle was that in fact it wasn’t at all that God withdrew favor from them (even though he made them believe that) but that he instead put a damper on their OWN and natural abilities which is what caused them to feel normal and be clutsy. And that he put some type of whammy on them to have all the other unpleasant issues.
But all that was lifted when Fortuna gave them the coin and their “luck” back.
PNP
Hi Guys,
I understood the restoration of humanity Jack-God performed last week to have all vanished people reappear. Therefore I would assume that Donna, Jodi, the girls, AU hunters, AU Charlie, AU Bobby (and the Doppelgangers) are all still in the world. Many of them know about the bunker. And I can believe that Sam would place a key with Donna or Jodi or maybe AU Bobby.
I didn’t understand as Sam walking away from the bunker forever. To me he definitely moved out, it being too painful to be there alone, but I would assume he would come back for the resources when needed. And I would have expected him to show his son.
I understand Sam’s son to be the main legacy now.
I also found it heartwarming for Donna to send work Sam’s way, no doubt in an effort to prevent him from giving up hunting completely.
I believe the Winchesters had enough chosen family left in the world and had influenced enough lives through their work that there are always people out there to carry on their legacy and work.
PNP
Super interesting to me how different we all felt the episode!!
I was hanging on every word in that scene. To me it felt like at first DEAN was drawing it out because he wasn’t ready to go and then SAM drew it out because he couldn’t let go of Dean when he was hanging on by a thread. But it didn’t feel too long to me.
The asking for and giving of “permission” to let go was INCREDIBLY powerful to me personally – partially because I had a very similar experience with a dying friend. So the whole thing went straight under my skin even though I only realized WHY on the second watching of it.
PNP
Although Sam got a “life” it seemed hollow — like he was never truly happy and spent decades faking having a life and a family. I guess the writers went back to that time when Sam said he wanted a normal life. So they thought it was okay to force Sam to live a whole life away from Dean and away from hunting. But it just felt hollow and empty to me. They were going for a level of sadness these characters didn’t deserve.
Hey Kate,
what made it seem hollow and unhappy to you?I felt that very differently. I agree that Sam wouldn’t have ever went looking for a family life on his own if Dean was still alive. However Dean has been pushing Sam towards Eileen as a possible partner ever since Eileen came into the picture. So with Dean’s dying wish for Sam to have a live and knowing that Eileen would be a good choice, seeing how she is a hunter herself and Dean liked her too, I can believe that Sam would have given that relationship a go.
And I got melancholy, but not unhappiness from the Sam life montage.
Like when he climbed into the Impala as a old man for example, it felt to me like he was feeling close to Dean there and that he missed him and that he maybe was “telling” Dean that he wouldn’t have to wait much longer, but he did not seem generally unhappy or suicidal to me.I am very sorry that it felt wrong and depressing to you!!!!!
PNP
Hi Y’All,
pardon the delay….I needed a little while and a second watch to organize my feelings.Secondly, please forgive me for NOT reading everyone’s comments before unloading my view points here.
And it’s very important for me to say THIS IS ONLY MY PERSONAL VIEW!!!! I completely understand and respect anyone’s opinions to differ from mine.
We are all so deeply touched by, attached to and affected by the Winchester Brothers in so many different ways that I don’t think there is ONE RIGHT opinion, just a multitude of beautifully complex view points depending on how we relate to the characters.
SO, with that said, here are my VERY PERSONAL feelings:
On first watch I liked the episode and ending of our 15-year journey a lot.
On second watch I have to say I LOVED IT! And I feel the masochistic urge to watch it again just now, but I know I need a break and let it percolate a little first.Don’t get me wrong, I was definitely SHOCKED and SICKENED that they would let Dean die so very soon after they finally managed to get out from under the constant manipulation by Chuck and had a whole “normal” hunting life together in front of them!!!! THAT part – the much too short time – is the only part I really resent for the sake of the characters. They could have easily given us the impression that more time passed before the doomed hunt!
But there was so much I did like about the episode that I was able to deal with the shocking death of my favorite character.
LOVED the starting montage of normal life at the bunker. (I would have liked a little conversation about “what are we doing to do now that we’re free” “hunting, of course” before that, though)
LOVED the visit to the pie fest including the pie face and that Dean ate the pie OFF his face as a nice harkening back to fun, silly episodes of the past!
LOVED every single scene between Sam and Dean – I thought it was excellent dialogue writing and of course J2 knocked it all out of the park.
LOVED what Jack did in Heaven!! Breaking down all the walls to let people actually have an “AFTER LIFE” and not just a rerun of their favorite memories!! (Would have liked a little more on HOW CAS helped??!!)
LOVED to have REAL Bobby back!! (I chose to believe everyone else was partying at the Roadhouse – and that Sam and Dean joined the party after meeting up on the bridge. (that was probably the part that got X-d because of covid)
LOVED that Sam honored Dean’s last request and went on to live a full live (in my head there is no doubt that the woman was EILEEN), had a kid named Dean and obviously indoctrinated that son into the family business (judging by the son’s antipossession tattoo)!!!! He left a Winchester legacy this way! And I find it comforting to know that there is another Winchester in the world with knowledge of the bunker and the friends out there and the able to retell the EPIC story of Sam and Dean’s life (maybe document it).
LOVED that Dean chose to spend his time in heaven with a joy ride in Baby while waiting for Sam. (And what GORGEOUS drone shots that brought on!!!)
LOVED that Sam and Dean got back together and now have an eternity of after life together.
LOVED the chosen music and its placement throughout. GREAT new version of Carry On at the end was haunting and beautiful to me.
I don’t even mind that a ‘simple’ vampire overpowered Dean (he was a burley SOB!!) and that bad luck during a ‘normal’ hunt killed him (IF HE HAD TO DIE….)!! That, to me, just showed that despite all the immense skill and superior knowledge and outstanding tools they have access to Sam and Dean are still only HUMAN.
I feel VERY STRONGLY that what made me fall in love with the Winchesters and make them heroes to me is that they are NOT superheroes, can’t fly, don’t have special powers, are scared at times, are vulnerable always, BUT go out and fight and make the world a better place ANYWAY!!! The are relatable that way like no other hero character out there is to me.
The masks on the vampires didn’t bother me either. To me it symbolized that ANY faceless monster could be the death of our heroes.
So, there was a lot I very much found touching, thoughtful, heart-wrenching, fitting and compelling about the episode but the scene in the barn preceding Dean’s death was truly blowing my mind and I couldn’t take my eyes off it (even though I SOBBED through it!):
For me that scene was one of THE BEST EVER on the show because it had the combined weight of fifteen years of rich story lines AND the actors knowledge and love for the characters AND the actors very personal goodbye from these characters behind it!! It’s the most POWERFUL thing I have ever seen AND FELT watching! I love letter between the brothers -on screen and off. Completely open and vulnerable!!!Dean’s speech to Sam was INCREDIBLE!!!! Telling Sam that he was his rock all along, that he was scared when he first picked him up for fear of being kicked to the curb, that he looked up to Sam for being smart and tough and strong, that he wouldn’t have made it without him, that he needs him to Always Keep Fighting, that he will always be there with him….it all was PERFECT and things I long “knew” in my heart but was appreciating to hear!!
Dean has always been the ultimate champion for Sam, out of deep love, and now he was still protective and fighting for Sam until his LAST BREATH, asking for Sam’s permission to go!!! That about KILLED ME!!!! And Jensen is simply a GOD to me. There is no one out there who could have pulled this off better.I thought Jared completely held his own as well and ripped my heart out in the barn scene and his lonely wanderings and silent tears in the bunker after.
Yes, I can freely admit that this was not my ideal ending and I can also say that it would have been VASTLY preferable to me to know that they are still “out there” and protecting the world even if we cannot see them.
I was also not in great favor to have the brothers separated for so long – especially from Sam’s view.
But I found it compelling story telling to give Sam that long life and family he didn’t seek but (to me) got to enjoy before reuniting with Dean in Heaven.And to me Dean was at peace in Heaven and seemed fulfilled when Sam joined him there.
Beautifully at peace and done….JUST like the song says.I also appreciated the many easter eggs I saw (mostly on second run through):
– Dabb’s pies was written on the food truck at the Pie Fest
– Sam and Dean introduced themselves to the police officer as FBI Agents Singer and Kripke
– Sam was wearing Dean’s watch on his death bed
– First and last words spoked by (adult) Dean in the entire run of the series were “Hey, Sammy”
– Baby had her old plates back in heaven
– Sam and Dean wore the same clothes on the bridge at the end as while hunting in the Pilot.
I’m sure there were more…I know there are a lot of mixed feelings about the writers and creators of the show. And I did not love everyone’s effort and view points equally, BUT NO MATTER if I liked the ending or not, I do not have ANY DOUBT that everyone involved making it put their heart blood into it!!!!
And I can accept this version of the end of the road for the Winchesters as a carefully crafted artistic expression of the show creators and involved talent with satisfaction and as fitting for our show.
PNP
Hi Y’All,
pardon the delay….I needed a little while and a second watch to organize my feelings.
Kate and Shannon,
All VERY interesting, well-argued and valued points!
I do agree with you in parts.Yes, I would have loved more of a reasoning WHY Chuck suddenly turned into what he became.
Yes, this season seemed mostly fan service and an endless parade of cameos written for the younger and less deeply involved fans.
Yes, there are a myriad of ways I could have seen this play out that I would have liked better.
BUT, I decided for myself that I want to be grateful that all the main players gave so much of their professional life and career to us.
I decided for myself to always look (HARDER than it was necessary in earlier seasons) for the positive and the things I still enjoyed and the performances which kept getting better in my opinion instead of letting the parts that bugged me win out.
And I feel, mostly after listening to a good number of actor and writer and producer podcast interviews (mostly not SPN related) this year, that I know woefully little about the push and pull in a creative team that makes up and TV Series production!!! I learned a little bit about how much.the network and studio do get involved with the writing process when the writer’s vision differs from the way the money trail seems to go. I was pretty shocked about that as I could see that as greatly frustrating for the creative process.
I don’t mean to say that ALL the seemingly lazy and partially inconsistent writing in S15 stems from such conflict, BUT I have more of a tolerance for it now.
Things like adding Jack in such big and expanding re was clearly a wish of the network to satisfy the younger audience members by having “their own” character.
Anyhow, I completely understand your qualms and I, too, wish the show would have played out with purely us “old guard” in mind, but I am hugely grateful that I had a show I mostly loved for FIFTEEN years. And no matter how bumpy the road became at times, I still rather travel it than stop.
Another thought on the end of yesterday’s episode:
I’m fine with Sam and Dean deciding that they want to do a vacation or loooong road trip and leave all of their old live behind for a while. They deserve it so very much. BUT I sure hope we will get more of an official good bye to the BUNKER!!! If they are not coming back to it for us to see before the end, I very much want there to be a little montage of them packing up and putting the bunker in order and maybe leaving a note for whoever finds it next. An official locking up and handing over the key to the next generation or SOMETHING!I didn’t have the feeling that Sam and Dean were not planning to stay there for a while longer…..so there is still hope.
The show creators and all actors were much too proud of and in love with that set to let it go without a little fanfare, right?
It’s been their HOME, their fortress, their source of knowledge…..we need a good send of for the bunker.
PNP
Thank you, Shannon, your points are all very interesting and well argued.
My criticism is often that things are not explained enough. I can accept or at least respect the writers decisions, if I would understand some of their reasoning and I am left wondering more often than not in this season.
I, for one, don’t mind GOD to be the villain as I said before. Maybe that is because I am not a Christian and don’t believe in the Christian version of God to begin with. The show has always handled Judeo-Christian mythology in unusual and fun ways imho so the idea of him being a very involved and often misled writer of the world’s story was fresh and interesting to me.
I do agree with you on the doubt if a three year old toddler is a good alternative to the original God but I do love the message that they were apparently trying to convey that people should believe that the divine lives within each of us and that we can all access that and be better when we strive to. That it doesn’t take direct intervention from the higher being you chose to believe in to be the best you can be. So maybe a good hearted, curious, kind YOUNG being with a wonder about the world is better than a jaded, angry, vengeful OLD one?
To be honest I had really hoped that the combination of Amara and God would have resulted in a role reversal with Amara becoming the light and creative force and God the dark and destructive one. THAT would have made most sense for me and fit into this season’s arc better. They were signs that Amara’s essence was changing when her touch didn’t kill the flower she held for example.
ALAS the writers chose another path. Was it just because Jack/Alex are popular with the younger demographic that is clearly targeted nowadays? Probably. I guess many of the season 15 decisions were based on a possible continuation of the story via a movie or later miniseries? We most likely will never find out.
Sadly, to me, it doesn’t feel EPIC enough of an end for our core characters…..but then….we have one more episode to go.
Oh, I wasn’t a fan of the table thing every since Mary’s initials showed up!! To me that will always be just D.W. and S.W. BUT at least now I see the added names as proof that Sam and Dean carved the additional “family members’ ” names there to commemorate them. If that is the case, however, I agree that it should be initials only.
Anyhow….mute point. If the Boys want the names there….so be it.
To me it looked CGI’d though. I think the S.W. and D.W. were actually carved. MAYBE the M.W. too? But Castiel and Jack looked fake tonight.
PNP
Hey JBB,
I, too, like WHAT Jack said about not going to be hands-on and how everyone has all they need and part of him in them already.So in the end, I guess, Jack might just be needed as the power cell for the universe and to keep balance with Amara? He doesn’t have to get involved at all?
/
What about HEAVEN and the shortage of power and angels there? I really had hoped they would have spared a sentence or two about that. Is Naomi still there and in power? Can Jack fix that situation?I’m guessing Death will be whichever Reaper#23 will die next?
Also, I thought the Empty said that God had no dominion in her realm? But didn’t Lucifer say that GOD freed him?
PNP
Oh, kate, NOW you are looking for logic?? HAHAHA. Sorry, I don’t think there was any.
I agree with you that if we are to believe that Jack makes a good next God, they should have come up with a more specific way to absorb energy.
I know they were trying to allude that Jack is evil or deadly or out of control but it felt lazy and clumsy on the writers part.
They could have made Jack to go the woods somewhere and suck a patch of land dry. Or make it seem more intentional on the planter part.
WHEN did they figure out that Jack was a power hoover? Dean states it so matter of factly. Did I miss where he got that understanding from?
ALSO – I did not like that they made Dean so adamant about Jack not being family etc just a couple of episodes ago, but now be all invested in him again. I really wish they would have kept it more even on the throughline.
PNP