PigNaPoke
Forum Replies Created
-
Posts
-
COMPLETELY agree, kate, it is ALWAYS Sam’s choice to stick with Dean!! And he always does. I never thought Dean dragged Sam anywhere. But I do think that Sam comes back to DEAN and not because of hunting. At least not until later seasons. At this point in the series, I do think Sam still hopes for an end to the hunting life. Dean already accepted that there will always be another monster to hunt, but Sam has settled into that idea yet or at least isn’t seeing his responsibility in sticking with the life yet.
I think that is part of their lovely messed up dynamic: Dean cuts Sam loose for his own good, partially because he knows or hopes that Sam will be back, and Sam leaves, partially because he wants to be asked to stay, but knows that he’ll come back no matter what. And round and round they go.
Base line – they know they can count on the other when it matters.I always felt horrible for Dean being stuck between Sam and John trying to be the mediator!!! If BOTH John and Sam would be better at communicating and LISTENING much of the ugly fights could be prevented.
TOTALLY!!!
I have that with MANY songs that SPN used over the years! I hear them and instantly see the scene in my inner eye. “Ready for Love”??!! HHHMMM
I too LOVE this episode. The norse lore, the super creepy monster and awesome shooting locations. It is truly terrifying and makes me never want to wander through an orchard!! So many good lines in this scirpt one as you both already said.
This episode is also a prime example of the perfect mix of humor, horror and real drama! THAT is what drew me to SPN most (aside from the music and the vibe) and has never seized to engage me.
I always loved the scenes through the years when Sam and/or Dean go to a university or retired professor to find out about lore that the questioned individual KNOWS is just folk tales but for the Winchesters is life-or-death information. Somehow these scenes are really funny to me because they rub the real world and the Winchester universe up against each other in a special way. One would think that some of these professors worth their weight might have actually done enough research to come to believe that these things are real….but NO, they don’t. They just happily “waste” their life’s work by researching fantasy.
I found and still find the brother dynamic regarding fight, flight, reunion in this one really well done and realistic. I know I just argued that I hated the fight in ASYLUM and it’s true, but THIS one here felt like a real brotherly disagreement and blow out to me. I remember when I watched it the first time never thinking that they would never get back together. I thought that it must be hard to sit on top of each other ALL THE TIME and never having much space or time to kinda work out some of your own stuff, so Sam walking off and Dean letting him seemed logical to me at the time. And I also remember being as surprised as Sam was when Dean seemingly turns him loose and says good bye. That was a shock to me.
It all still holds up for me know, although, I see the dynamic a little more nuanced after 15 years! At first sight it’s just two young alpha males butting heads. After years of a deeper look in each of their psyches it’s layers and layers of guilt and fear of abandonment and need to be heard and jealousy and longing for a normal life and loyalty and resentment etc etc. IT IS FASCINATING.
In either case, though, it’s very well written and BEAUTIFULLY acted.
AGREED with both of you that THIS Meg was the best Meg! Just as blonde Ruby was the best Ruby. Both of these actresses have the edgy snark and quiet strength and an believable air of danger and deviousness that Rachel and Gen were lacking for me. I did love Rachel as an actress, I just wish they would have made her a DIFFERENT demon so there wasn’t the direct comparison.
Yup, this was a real gem!
Very good question about how Dean knew to unload his gun! 🙂 I wondered that, too.
PNP
Hi Kate,
my problem with it was more that I didn’t believe that Sam’s anger at DEAN was that deep. THAT is the part that was overstretched for me.
I get that there had to be a certain resentment from Sam’s side to get the ghost to feed off and Sam definitely has an anger issue but I believe most of that is directed at John.
The anger Sam harbors for John and Dean is definitely as complex as Dean’s feeling of guilt is. I think there is jealousy involved – Sam being subconsciously jealous that Dean IS the better hunter and therefore of more value and help to John for example. Sam lashes out at the other two but I believe is also in large parts angry with himself for not doing anything to rectify the situation.
I’m not trying to defend Sam beyond reason here. He acted AWFUL in this episode and didn’t do enough to make up for it. It left a definite sour taste behind. I just think that the writers over did it to create more conflict than there ought to be.
Great location for filming, interesting case and monster, nicely creepy visuals….all good, BUT I don’t like this episode because I thought the writers went WAY off field with Sam’s mean reactions towards Dean in this.
Calling Dean pathetic and unthinking and being John’s “good little soldier” just following orders….And then SHOOTING HIM, TWICE???
It went too far.
And the lame excuse “I couldn’t control it” at the end from Sam was way too little too late.
I know they were still defining the characters at that point, but making Sam willing and able to shoot Dean even if FUMING angry is as out of character to me as (much later) Dean holding a gun on an innocent girl and screaming at her.
The whole thing doesn’t work for me and I still don’t understand why they thought it was necessary.
PNP
This is one of my favorite episodes in season one and also one of my favorites overall.
But then I am on the PRO Missouri side and always hoped that they would bring her back every once in a while for something – and not just to kill her off!!!
I enjoyed her snark and willingness to go and help them and found the connection between her and John interesting. That could have been explored some more.
INTERESTING info, kate, that she was meant to be the “Bobby” character!!! I had never heard that. I sure am glad we got our Bobby!!! I do love Missouri but she is no substitute to him.
I completely respect your dislike for her, though, Kate! I agree that she was one sided in her chiding of the guys and she was clearly not the strongest psychic.
JBB, I love your take on it, though. That’s a way I never thought about it and it makes sense to me.
I also don’t think Dean would have wanted to be called out in front of Sam for being worried enough to have called their dad! Maybe she sensed that, too?
The fact that Missouri couldn’t sense the poltergeist anymore after the initial banishing ceremony always puzzled me a little, too, but in my head I understood that it might have been only temporarily kicked out of the house by the ritual, but it was too powerful to be completely banished. After all it took Mary’s ghost to sacrifice itself to completely take out the poltergeist in the end.
Speaking of Mary: I never really paid homage to it but I have to say Sam Smith did a fantastic job in this episode conveying a myriad of emotions with very little time and few lines! When she said “Dean” it spoke of pride and a sense of satisfaction of seeing him grown up. When she said “Sam.” It sounded sad and whistful and regretful. Her “I’m sorry” always meant to me that she apologized to Sam for the deal she struck that ultimately sent Yellow Eyes after Sam. Lots of nuance in her performance. Kudos.
I also LOVE that this episode gives the Winchesters the box of mementos and photos, many of which we’ll see through the series all the way to the end. Lovely idea and important touch stone for the brothers.
JBB, I never questioned that Sam would recognize Mary. I thought John surely had at least a couple of photos of her so Sam would have seen images of her?
kate, I too LOVE the action in this episode!! The lamp chord choking of Sam and Dean’s rescue is awesome and super creepily shot (over his shoulder seeing it snaking up to Sam was disturbing). And the kitchen scene where Dean HEARS the knives before he sees them was amazing and his quick wit and reaction to use the table as a shield impressive.
kate, another eye opening statement of yours to me is that John came BECAUSE Dean called!!! I never ever thought of it that way! In my head John ignored Dean’s plea for help – why the heck ever!!??!! – and Missouri called him in OR he was keeping an eye on the boys anyway. I guess I could not make it logical to myself that John wouldn’t rush to their aid when Dean specifically asked.
Now, I think your version is the much more logical one!! John probably did come because of the call and then stayed in the distance because he knows how capable his sons are and he could have stepped in if necessary? OK, I can buy that.I love this most of all about our discussion – how many people watch the same show and SEE different things.
Makes for great conversation.PNP
I never minded this one. Actually I quite like it. The environmental message, the Native American mythology, the unsettling “adversary” of everything with too many legs!!!
I didn’t even mind the slightly heavy handed father-son parallels they were trying to draw.
I loved the important talk Sam and Dean have about the infamous college fight when Sam left on the way to the university appointment. First time we get to hear some nice things about John – that he was worried about Sam and swung by Stanford to check in on him. But also the first time I got an inkling that Sam and John might be equally pig-headed and that THAT is part of the problem.
SURE Sam could have also called! I agree with kate38 there. However, I don’t think there is ONE party to blame here. ALL three of them had a part in this blow out. John SHOULD have been proud of Sam for his academic accomplishment of getting a full ride! And instead of throwing him out and telling him never to come back, a more adult conversation about the situation would have been nice. Dean was the mediator all his life and that isn’t fair! But I often wondered why it seemed that he did NOT try and step in and mediate that particular fight? Sam should have been less of a petulant teen and reach out once settled in at Stanford. In the end….GUYS….what can you do.I also love the talk at the end about Sam wanting to find John to apologize. I actually love it the most for Dean’s realism that he knows that harmony between Sam and John wouldn’t last. HA
I also appreciate that they didn’t try to sugar coat the sad and slightly run down state many Native American communities are existing in!
Great acting in this one and very interesting insight into Dean’s issues, but over all it’s one of my least favorites of season.
I thought Becky was STUPID and quite a b#$@% . Happy enough to accept help, then kicking them out and then letting “Dean” back in…why?
Shifter’s are also not one of my favorite monsters. All that GOO….ICK! And I also think that the shifting process should make them really vulnerable at that time and that was never taken advantage off.
BUT I give it that…super freaking creepy effects with “Dean” ripping his skin off and loosing teeth and nails.Still the whole thing left me kinda cold.
Another REALLY nicely creepy one!
There were a few funny parts about it. Like Dean going out to find the UNMARKED grave. UUHHMM, how’d you do that?
Some of the lines were super clonky, so we (audience) could get some background on how to handle ghosts. HA.
I can honestly admit that I completely forgot about the ozone smell!!! SMELL a ghost? And EMF a demon?? I love seeing what they tried out and DIDN’T stick with.
KATE38, I do NOT know another episode where the ozone smell came to play.
I, too, thought the effects in this were great! The Hookman appearing and disappearing. The scrapes on the wall with the exploding plaster, the way he burned up at the end was cool, too.
I always loved the moment where Sam and Dean toss necklace and shotgun at each other so smoothly. NICE action and great chemistry between them.
YES, Kate38 I noticed the Bobby’s Mom actress, too. For once! HA.
Solid episode, nice case, good brother moments.
Thanks, Kate38!
Plot armor alert, noted.To me that’s just AWESOME DEAN WINCHESTER!!
Chuck wasn’t paying attention to them at this time, in my head. 🙂 But I get why it could seem like it.
PNP
LOVELY CREEPY episode!!! I never heard of Bloody Mary growing up in Germany, we obviously had different legends, so this was a new one for me back in the day and has remained a favorite Urban Legend for me ever since.
I also liked the continuation from Phantom Traveler of having another being revealing something to Sam about Sam!! I agree, JBB, it’s really unsettling having a stranger or a monster in their case knowing too much about you and revealing it to you like this. It also makes us as the audience get insight into Sam’s rising tension and stress about his secret that he’s carrying around and wondering when he’ll snap.
I agree with what both of you already said – great effects with Bloody Mary’s appearance and weird movement, great scenes in the Antique shop’s mirror room, great cooperation between the brothers to overpower Mary in the end, good quick thinking of Dean there at the end.
SOLID episode for me.
I, too, wondered why Dean would have been effected by Mary’s curse but I always thought is had to do with his overall tendency to carry the burden and guilt around for all of the people he COULDN’T save or felt died on his watch. He didn’t KILL them, but he feels responsible for them dying. That was logical enough for me.
I for one don’t hold it against Sam to keep his secret at this point. OF COURSE, I would have LOVED the brothers to always be on the same page and honest with each other, BUT that would have gotten pretty boring at some point. A dynamic back and forth of issues and secrets and stress and guilt and so on just makes for better storytelling. I can appreciate that. AND it makes the times that they ARE on the same level and work truly TOGETHER all the more sweet.
The way I see it here is that Sam feels guilty and horrible for NOT having had a chance to save Jessica. He beats himself up internally for having failed her. And he isn’t ready to ADMIT that out loud to the one person he always looked up to and who’s opinion of him actually matters to him. He doesn’t want to hear and see that Dean is disappointed in him, so he keeps it close to the vest for the time being. I can appreciate that.
BOTH had screwed up reasons for keeping secrets through the seasons. I do think it’s pretty evenly split between them on who lied to whom. I do believe that it was never done maliciously, but always with the OTHER’s best interest at heart. Often misled, YES, as they would have been so much better off dealing with most of the crap together, but understandable in the way that they always tried to protect each other.
PNP
SOOOO late to the party…sorry.
This was was a little rocky or “holy” storywise BUT I do like it a lot in retrospect because we get several firsts in this episode.
First demon….albeit looking more like a swarm of flies, but hey, I appreciate that we got to see the “character development” of demon smoke in later episodes. HA.
First time the guys were in suits. It always makes me laugh because Dean looks SO uncomfortable and I wonder why they made the choice not to have BOTH of them uncomfortable? I highly doubt that Sam had that much more experience with suits being a STUDENT in Stanford.
First (and last time) of air travel…..I always appreciated (and still do) the setting of much of this episode on a plane!! As a travel professional and frequent traveler I find the idea of being confined in the air with something uncontrollable SUPER scary!!! And I think choosing a demon and therefore something the guys didn’t deal with before heightened the tension even more.
I also think setting much of the action on a plane set was super ballsy as it is hard to move around in and makes sweeping fights impossible. So that was ambitious for an episode so early in the run of the show.I love the scenes between Sam and Dean on the plane!! It is sweet how Sam suddenly becomes the “big brother” all logical and calm and helping Dean keep his head. This was a nice show of a different dynamic between them.
First time we hear John’s voice since the pilot. And see what it does to the boys – the very (for early seasons) typical raw, emotional response from Sam and a clamping down from Dean.
OF COURSE we ALL looooove the sleepy Dean shot!!!! YES, kate38, naked Dean feet! HHHMMM. And…other…lovely parts. It’s great.
PNP
Hey Kate38,
“I wonder about this point, though. Sam often defends himself by saying he left John and Dean to go to college, so he wasn’t running away. That makes me question whether he truly would’ve stayed away forever if things had gone differently. As close as he and Dean were, and as much as Sam must have known Dean cared about him, I doubt Sam would’ve walked away from Dean forever. That means that at some point, Jessica would’ve met Dean and Sam would’ve had to lie over and over again about who Dean was and what he did for a living. (Side note, it always saddens me when Dean says that he stayed away from Sam for two whole years and never even tried to call or contact him. That must have broken his heart. He loved Sam so much…)”
I often wished they had written that differently!!! I always had a hard time believing that the brothers were so close for all their youths and then Dean WOULDN’T have went to check on Sam at college – even if it was unseen. Having Dean say that he essentially was ok with ignoring Sam for two years did not do the character any service!! Same with John. He says that he didn’t want Sam to go because he was worried for his safety, but then he has no problem completely abandoning him at college? So which is it? Are you worried? Or are you pissed and convinced that Sam is ok on his own?
PNP
Hey Kate38,
I finally get some time to go back over your PILOT comments and love to keep the conversation going.
“I struggled to like Sam until about season 7, and it began with the Pilot. If he supposedly loved Jessica, why didn’t he tell her who he truly was? I know John had a “rule” about that, but since when did Sam obey ANY of John’s rules? Dean told Cassie who he was, and he was religiously obedient to John and his rules. Dean loved Cassie, even though he’d only known her for a short time. When you love someone, you tell them the truth about who you are — especially if you have a dark or dangerous past. Sam was supposedly going to propose to Jessica — BAH! I’ve often wondered if Sam initially left with Dean for his OWN reasons. He’d been having visions of Jessica burning up on the ceiling for days before she died. Maybe he wanted to find John to get answers to that, and not really to save John. I don’t know – I just found Sam selfish and unlikable for the first several seasons. Jared’s acting was clunky at times, which didn’t help. Jensen was already SO velvety smooth, that it just made Jared’s inexperience more apparent. And sorry, but it was kinda sleazy for Jessica to come into the room like that. If you hear a burglar breaking into your house, or you hear your boyfriend talking to another man in the middle of the night, by all means, enter the room wearing next to nothing. Classy. Enough of that.”
I’m not saying Sam wasn’t still very much a selfish child at times in the early seasons!! And rebellious as all hell. YES! But I can sympathize with it in many ways. Of course you are supposed to tell the person you love the truth….but in Sam’s specific case I simply think he was partially embarrassed by his strange and dangerous past and didn’t want to drive a new love interest away with it and partially he probably wanted to protect Jessica from possible danger. Was that smart? NO. Was that the right thing to do? NO. But Sam at that point was under the impression that his dad had thrown him out instead of being proud that his son got into a GREAT school on his own smarts AND he was probably under the impression that his brother wasn’t standing up for him to help him convince John. As we find out over time the Winchester Family also completely SUCKS at communicating emotional truths, so to me all this leads to the understandable as circumstance why Sam was looking for a “clean slate”. Obviously that action proofed foolish pretty quickly and deadly for Jessica…..and I do think that Sam carries that failure with him for a long long time.
I do find your point about Sam going with Dean to get answers from John about his visions VERY intriguing! I could totally see that as an additional motivator!!
True that Dean was honest with Cassie!! And I always applaud him for that, however, he obviously also lacked communication skill in that confession because we find out that Cassie thought he was nuts or lying to get rid of her and he didn’t seemed to have followed up and tried to smooth the situation over or keep a relationship going. You KNOW I love Dean, but he is not exactly emotionally mature at the beginning of the show either. Telling a girl he spends a few months with the truth about who he really is when he knew very well that he wouldn’t stay with her was in a way not much of an emotional risk. And after all even after reconnecting with her SHE is the one realistic about their impossible future….and he obviously doesn’t try to show her differently.
All I’m saying is that both brothers have their issues with relation ships and lack the ability to navigate the necessary emotional give and take successfully.
But it’s exactly THAT which makes them such interesting and relatable characters to me. So I forgive them.
PNP